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James Özden's avatar

Thank you for writing this Rose – I think it’s very useful to have some of this discussion in the open and also clearly explained. I’m also a big fan of the way this can be used to gain media and get people involved in animal issues.

However, I disagree on some points, and will explain why below:

(Note: if you want to read this relatively long comment - it might be easier to do so here, where it is better formatted and has hyperlinks: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/Lx9NEjTvvhQkaQR8e/are-we-wrong-to-stop-factory-farms?commentId=rSfyQcmn4xwJA32yu)

1. Your article came across as demeaning to and ignores the great work being done in the movement

“You don’t get there by doing nothing locally and hoping for the best globally.”

“And perhaps most importantly, it offers no coherent alternative except surrender.”

I think implying that EAs or people who have this critique are surrendering is pretty insulting to all the groups doing great work, in the UK and more broadly. For example, The Humane League UK, Open Cages UK, and Animal Equality UK are all doing great work to get hens out of cages in the UK, improving the living standards of meat chickens, winning legal protections for fish, and much more. They have impacted the lives of literally 500 million meat chickens and helped get tens of millions of hens out of cages each year.

To me, this seems like a worrying sign of hubris: only thinking the work you’re doing is “radical” enough or addressing the “real” problem.

2. Stopping new farms could hold back improving the lives of animals

Something you didn’t mention is another aspect people are concerned about: stopping new farms holds back welfare reforms that will tangibly improve the lives of chickens.

Thanks to the amazing work of groups in the UK, 7 major retailers committed to giving their meat chickens 20% more space. Estimates are that this will improve the lives of 500 million chickens each year, out of the total 1+ billion meat chickens raised in the UK. However, giving chickens 20% more space reduces the number of chickens per shed. If you block the extra floor space needed, which some producers are trying to build, other companies may not give their chickens more space. Or, similarly bad, those companies could source more from abroad, often at lower welfare. That’s not the outcome we want. Ideally, we can work on campaigns that don’t make the work of other animal advocates more challenging, which is why I have some mixed feelings here!

Of course, you could try to avoid this via not targeting the higher-welfare farms, which I and others have suggested previously. However, I don't think you have clarified your position on blocking planning permission for farms where it is required to make welfare improvements. Anima have made this distinction for their campaign in Poland, for example.

3. Stopping imports, or phasing out factory farming, is not easy nor likely to happen soon

I also don’t think the fur farming example supports your point that “Import restrictions become politically inevitable because they’re supported by the movement we’ve built and aligned with farming interests.” – Imports of fur continue to this day, 25 years after we banned it in the UK.

Farmers say they want equal import standards, but their actual top issues are loosening planning rules so they can build more sheds and fighting inheritance tax. Even now, the UK signs trade deals allowing lower-welfare meat. Getting those laws passed is slow and uncertain – we can’t assume they’ll follow automatically.

The UK is currently on track to align veterinary standards with the EU, which means the UK loses the ability to block imports from the EU (our main trading partner) as well as some other countries like the US, Canada, Brazil and more I’m not aware of. This doesn’t make me very optimistic that we should pursue strategies that only seem good if we ban imports. Read more about this here.

Similarly, I disagree with:

“Here’s the deepest difference between our approach and the critics’: we actually believe factory farming can end.”

I also believe it can end – we just have very different timelines. It seems like (but correct me if this is wrong) you think this is possible within the next few years? Personally, I would put it around 20-50 years away, given the strength and size of the industry, and the fact that social change always moves more slowly than people expect. Given that this is an industry that has been stable or growing for the past decades, I think there needs to be pretty exceptional evidence if you think it will end in the next few years.

To be clear, I think it is good to be ambitious and go for big wins. But, I think it has to be moderated with some clear-eyed thinking on what is actually possible, so we don’t spend limited resources on campaigns that have a minisucile chance of winning – like trying to ban factory farming in the UK – and therefore miss a better opportunity to help animals.

4. You overstate how much these wins actually help animals

Stopping a new farm in the UK might prevent animal farming locally, but I think it’s unlikely that the effects are long-lived.

You say:

“We are blocking factory farms that raise an average of 1 million birds per year. If that farm would have operated for 30 years, that’s millions of individual lives spared from industrial confinement. It takes years to identify land, secure planning permission, secure financing, and build a new facility. In the meantime, large numbers of animals will be spared a lifetime of suffering.”

I think this is somewhat true, and it is a complicated dynamic. But I don’t think it’s right to say it takes 30 years to scale up imports or production. For example, you might have:

- Farms abroad that operate at 80% capacity, which can easily increase production and export to the UK (and as you note, these will sometimes have worse standards!)

-Given that there are many countries we import chicken from, with probably thousands of chicken farms each, I think it’s likely that at least some of them have additional capacity to increase production and cover a UK shortage while farms are built in other countries.

- Farms are built overseas in countries that don’t require loads of regulations and red tape. Given that we import chicken meat from countries like Brazil or Thailand, which will have fewer planning regulations, it will be relatively straightforward for them to scale up production (especially if they just add an extra shed to an existing farm).

- Farms in the UK that operate at 80% full capacity (e.g. they have an unused shed), and they will just ramp up to 100% capacity, which will be extremely quick.

- As a comparison to how others are thinking about the duration of impact, Saulius working with Anima used an average 1 year of impact, although he notes this estimate is highly uncertain.

(Although this is also based on other complex stuff like breeders, hatcheries, catching slots and farms being the right specification for UK buyers).

Other reasons why imports can easily increase:

- The UK almost doubled its chicken imports from 2012 to 2022.

- Imports make up around 25-35% of all chicken consumption in the UK currently, so it already is a pretty major component.

- In economic terms, the supply of meat is elastic: if the market expects a shortage in one place, prices adjust and other producers find it profitable to produce a bit more. So while I agree the world isn’t perfectly static or efficient, it’s not completely messy either – there are market mechanisms that fill the gaps. The USDA even states it themselves: “improved margins are expected to encourage increased broiler production”

But overall, yes, there might be some period of time where supply is reduced, so prices are increased and demand drops slightly. This would be a good outcome! But this also comes at the cost of animals being in worse conditions – this report found 95% of Britain’s current or potential trade partners have lower farm animal welfare standards than the UK. So, it’s not obvious to me which side wins overall for actually improving the lives of animals.

Then I think a reasonable question is: is it the best use of our time and energy to be pursuing things that only help animals for a few months or in unclear ways? Especially if it may clash with the work of other advocates?

1/2

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Frankie's avatar

Just a quick note to say that the Effective Altruism community is a very diverse group of people with many different opinions, beliefs and strategies. There is no one single 'Effective Altruist critique'. The concept of EA is about applying reason and evidence to think through our altruistic decisions to best impact the individuals we are trying to help - and reasonable people often disagree on what that looks like! In fact, healthy respectful disagreement and debate is encouraged in the EA community - we all have the same goal of finding what is truly the most impactful. I'm not sure that some of the phrases used in your article capture this (e.g. "The effective altruist argument assumes...", "Effective Altruists argue that...", "The effective altruist critique..." etc.)

Big respect for your passion for the animals, Rose & the AR team <3

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